Q&A With Jeff Pearlman: The Phil-Kobe-Shaq Lakers Dynasty
This article was originally published on Elbow Bump — Hochberg Sports Marketing’s blog — on September 6, 2020.
We’re excited to share our conversation with Jeff Pearlman. The 48-year-old is a New York Times best-selling author of nine books, including Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Antihero; Sweetness: The Enigmatic Life of Walter Payton; and Showtime: Magic, Kareem, Riley, and the Los Angeles Lakers Dynasty of the 1980s.
Pearlman’s latest book, Three-Ring Circus: Kobe, Shaq, Phil, and the Crazy Years of the Lakers Dynasty is scheduled to be released on September 22. The book shares countless anecdotes about the Lakers teams from 1996–2004, a period dominated by Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O’Neal — two superstars in their own right who, despite their success together on the court, struggled to form a brotherhood off the court.
Pearlman’s book will be released roughly eight months following the tragic death of Kobe Bryant. The book focuses on Kobe’s early years in the NBA, and reveals many unflattering stories that portray him, Pearlman says, as “insufferable.”
In an effort to prepare readers for what they will be reading, Pearlman added an Author’s Note to begin the book, which he explained to us below.
You can preorder Jeff’s book here and follow him on Twitter here. Enjoy the conversation.
On writing a book & navigating tragic circumstances
Elbow Bump: You’ve written a number of books about multiple sports taking place in a number of different eras. Why this story?
Jeff Pearlman: It kind of felt like a sequel to Showtime.
I thought Showtime ended in an interesting way, which is really with Magic Johnson announcing he had HIV. And I live out here now. I lived in New York when I worked on that book. The Lakers are much more ubiquitous and part of life here. And I always felt like I thought that book would need a sequel. And I was out here and thinking about the Shaq-Kobe era — just how interesting it was and how it really was a handoff from the Magic Johnson-Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) era. I just thought it made for a really good topic.
Also, when you think about writing a book, one thing you’re always asked by editors, agents, and everyone is who you’re going to hang the book on? Who’s a star that is going to draw people in? And I feel like this team has three stars — Phil, Shaq and Kobe. And it just made for a pretty freakin’ right topic.
EB: How long did it take you to write from start to finish, and how did Kobe Bryant’s sudden death change your approach — if at all?
JP: It took about two years total, which is usually how long I take.
The weird thing is that Kobe’s death didn’t change anything because the book was already done, wrapped, and ready to be formatted. And then Kobe died. And honestly, my first reaction was just devastation. The book wasn’t my first reaction. You have to be some kind of awful human being for your first reaction to think, “Oh, how’s this gonna affect my book?”
But then I really wanted to add — it’s gonna sound weird — almost like a disclaimer, because the book covers Kobe from 1996–2004, and Kobe was not the best always. Like, a lot of us, he was a complicated, young guy. So I felt like I wanted to put something in the front of the book. Almost just saying, “Look, just so you know, the guy you’re reading about here is just a part of the journey. This is not the completed Kobe Bryant who you’re reading about here. And keep in mind, we all go through our journeys, and we all have our paths. And what I’m showing you is part of his path, not the guy who just died.”
I don’t know — maybe part of it is self preservation. Like, there’s gonna be this book coming out, and some parts are really hard to read about Kobe and it’s kind of weird that he died. It makes it a very awkward dance.
EB: Was there ever any thought on your end to omit negative passages of the book due to his death?
JP: No. The only thing we talked about was what to do with the publication date. There were some people saying we should move it up and I was 100% against that. One hundred percent against that.
There’s another book that I saw one day when I was walking through a bookstore. This is, I think, 11 days after Kobe died. I forgot the name of it, but it was about Kobe Bryant. And it was actually a new cover on an old book gestured to make money off of him dying. I was horrified. And I don’t want to be that person.
Then there was talking about pushing it back to give people more time. But I felt that he died in January, and this is coming out late September. That’s a pretty decent amount of time. And it’s never going to be 100% comfortable.
If you don’t want to read anything negative about Kobe Bryant or Shaq or any of those guys, then this isn’t the book for you. There’s a lot of positive and some negative. It’s my job is to write biographies. My job isn’t to write mythologically glowing portraits of athletes. It’s just all weird.
On Three-Ring Circus
EB: Can you talk about one or two anecdotes or facts from the book that surprised you amid your research?
JP: It’s interesting. This isn’t gonna sound shocking when I say it out loud, but it actually really surprised me:
You go into this book and the idea of the book is the 1996–2004 Lakers and to me, that doesn’t just mean Shaq and Kobe but it also means covering Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones and Cedric Ceballos and Mark Madsen and Rick Fox and all these guys. But there’s this freakin’ magnetic force you can’t get away from which is the Kobe-Shaq relationship.
You can’t escape it. It hangs over all those years so profoundly. And the thing that I found really fascinating is — Kobe comes along, and he’s this immature brat. And Shaq is the more seasoned veteran. But like time after time, the thing that I just kept thinking was — man, this is so interesting — was that Kobe didn’t give a shit. Like Shaq desperately needed to be like the, quote unquote, big brother. He needed to be Batman and Kobe was gonna be Robin — it was a need for him. Shaq needed that relationship. He desperately wanted that relationship. And you would just think Kobe would be the one who would need that relationship coming along as a young guy.
But Kobe didn’t give two shits about it. Like he didn’t care. It was a non-thing for him. You almost see Shaq hurt by Kobe’s unwillingness to play this role. Time after time after time.
EB: And how about a story from the book?
JP: There’s this fight between Samaki Walker and Kobe Bryant that actually opens the book. Before road games, the Lakers used to do this thing where they would do like a three-point or half-court shooting contest. Everyone puts $100 in and you know, they’re talking trash and the players are firing off shots. Whoever makes it gets all of the money. On one particular day, Kobe won. And everyone pays him his one hundred bucks. But Samaki Walker doesn’t have $100 with him. And Kobe’s like Samaki, “Where’s my money? Samaki, where’s my money?” And Samaki Walker says, “I’ll get it to you when I get it to you.”
The next day they’re on the team bus in Cleveland and Kobe again asks, “Samaki, where’s my money?” Samaki says, “Kobe, I don’t fucking have your money” or whatever he said. And Kobe reaches back and smacks him in the face. And this fight breaks out on the team bus where Samaki Walker is telling Phil to get the bus to stop so he can take Kobe outside the bus on a side road in Cleveland, Ohio and beat the shit out of him. And Kobe kind of backs down.
The next day, Samaki Walker’s in his hotel room and the hotel phone is blinking. This is pre-iPhone days. It’s Kobe Bryant calling and he’s in tears leaving a message. He says he’s really sorry and he isn’t sure what what got ahold of him.
And this really speaks to Kobe. It made him the player he was but it also made him kind of insufferable. This need to win and to dominate, to show who you are, and to plant your flag. And there are like a million examples of this. He’s a weird character because on the one hand, his work ethic was unparalleled and it should be admired by anyone who’s ever had any kind of work ethic. But on the other hand, if all you do is seek to destroy and kill, what are you?
EB: The Lakers signed Phil Jackson to a five-year, $30 million contract in 1999. The organization was known to spend quite conservatively on their head coaches before the Jackson hire. What changed — did Shaq and Kobe use their star power to push Los Angeles to sign him?
JP: Jerry West (Lakers general manager) did not want to hire Phil Jackson. West wanted to stay with Kurt Rambis as head coach — he thought he could develop into a good coach. And he didn’t really like Phil Jackson. I love Phil Jackson, but there were a lot of people in basketball at that time who were not big fans of his. He could be pretty arrogant, pretty aloof and sort of condescending and I think West did not love the idea of Jackson.
Shaq made it clear that there are three coaches he would play for and made it clear he did not want Rambis back. He thought Rambis coddled Kobe in major ways.
He said he wanted to play for either Chuck Daly, Phil Jackson or weirdly, Brian Hill, the former Orlando Magic coach. But the main impact was Jerry Buss (former majority owner of the Lakers) just desperately wanting to win… he believed in the power of “showtime” and the power of the thinking, “We’re supposed to be bigger and better. We got Shaq, he’s the best. We busted our ass to get this Kobe Bryant. He’s gonna be the best. We need the best and Phil Jackson is just hanging out.”
And Phil Jackson made it clear he was interested in the job… So I would say Shaq definitely made it clear who he wanted to play for. At that point in his career, Kobe didn’t have that much sway as far as demanding a coach. Shaq had a lot of sway. And Jerry Buss was the number one guy who saw it for what it is, which is there are certain coaches who are guaranteed wins. Not many, but there are (Bill) Belichicks in the world and there are Rick Pitinos in in the world and there are Phil Jacksons in the world, where if you bring those guys in, you’re gonna win.
EB: Unless you’re Phil Jackson working for the Knicks, that is.
JP: We all have our expiration dates!
EB: Moving along to the 2003–2004 season, there is a lot happening. Can you take us through what is taking place between Kobe and Shaq here?
JP: That might be the weirdest season in basketball history. If there’s certain seasons you could do a book about, that’s the season you could. For one, there was the Kobe rape trial going on. For all the things that had an impact, that’s number one by far. He’s flying in and out of Eagle, Colorado, and might be going to prison for 20 years.
He was also getting his knee fixed when he was there. He came back that season and played well. It’s actually one of the most impressive seasons if you just set aside the fact he was being accused of raping a young woman. His return is one of the most impressive athletic feats as far as mind over matter that you’ll ever read about.
He’s flying back and forth. He’s being accused of rape. He’s persona non grata everywhere. He’s losing endorsements left and right. Everyone hates him outside of LA. He’s exhausted. And he’s doing it. It’s really impressive.
But I think Shaq was kind of fed up by this point. I really do. He wanted an extension. He was angry about it. He was agitated about it. He wasn’t in good shape. He knew and really started to see and understand that the organization’s priority was Kobe. And that was a new thing for him. He was on the other side of 30. And all of a sudden, you’re not as important as you were. And he kept bringing it up. He brought it up during training camp. Jerry Buss was sitting by the court during a game. Shaq runs by him and yells, “Show me the money!” or “Give me the money!”
The main problem with that season was everything coming together at once. They wouldn’t resolve Phil Jackson’s contract. They wouldn’t resolve Shaq’s contract. Kobe was threatening to leave for the Clippers. Kobe was in the middle of the rape issue. You had (Karl) Malone and (Gary) Payton coming in and out. Those guys were like foreign antibodies coming in. There’s just a lot going on at one time.
EB: Obviously, there’s tons taking place. In that season, Kobe is making $13.5 million. Shaq is making almost double. Did this disparity add to any of the animosity between them?
JP: No, I didn’t see that anywhere. Kobe was about to get paid huge money at the end of that season. He could go anywhere. I just think Kobe resented the fact that Shaq did not work hard in his eyes, that he was lazy, and that he couldn’t hit free throws. He didn’t really practice free throws. I just think he was tired of this guy.
From the time he entered the league, Kobe always thought of himself as the star, and that he should be the guy with the ball in his hands at the last second. He was just tired of the whole situation, but I don’t think money was the issue because he knew he was about to get paid.
EB: In the 2004 offseason, Shaq was traded to the Miami Heat and one day later, Kobe signed a seven-year, $136.4 million extension. There are conflicting stories regarding Shaq’s departure, with some claims that Kobe forced him out and others stating it was in fact the front office who no longer had interest in Shaq. Which is it?
JP: Well, Kobe would not play with Shaq again. That is a a clear number one reason. I interviewed Lakers guard Kareem Rush for the book on this. To end that season, the Lakers lose to Detroit in the Finals. They get destroyed. And they have an after-party at a hotel in Michigan.
Rush is sitting down, and Kobe says to him, “I ain’t playing with that motherfucker again.” And Rush told me that he knew it was done at that point. It was over. Kobe made it very, very clear that he wasn’t going to play with Shaq.
Kobe actually met with Jackson after the season. Jackson was probably not coming back to the Lakers, and asked Kobe if his presence or absence would have anything to do with his desire to play for the Lakers. And Kobe tells Jackson he should do what he wants to do. Jackson then asks Kobe if he would play with Shaq again. And Kobe says, “I’ve done that for eight years with him. I’m tired of being a sidekick.” He was done. He didn’t want to do it anymore.
I think Buss would have happily brought Shaq back. Maybe not for the terms he desperately wanted. I think he would have brought him back for pretty good money though. But the number one priority that offseason was keeping Kobe Bryant, by far. And I think if they had resigned Shaq, Kobe would have gone to the Clippers. That would have been it.
EB: When did Shaq realize his time with the Lakers was coming to an end?
JP: When they are at the team party after they lose to Detroit, Shaq is there with his wife, and Kobe is there. Jerry Buss walks in and he walks straight up to Kobe and doesn’t say anything to Shaq. At that moment, Shaq said he knew he was done.
EB: Last question here. Obviously, these Lakers years were filled with tons of drama. But there wasn’t social media. No reporters breaking news on Twitter. No subliminal messages in athlete Instagram posts. If the Kobe-Shaq feud was taking place in 2020, how do you think it would have been different?
JP: I think it would have been really stupid because both those guys — Shaq and Kobe — were actually passive aggressive with each other. When they were talking to the media they would talk shit about each other and then the media would go to the other guy, and they would talk shit. It was very rare for the slams to be direct.
I just think on Twitter we’d have these stupid Twitter Shaq-Kobe wars. It’d be insanely dumb. And then they’d walk into the arena and they’d say, “Read my Twitter and you will see what I meant.” I just think it would have been really stupid more than anything.
But also, one thing I would say about now is that stuff doesn’t last long, because it comes and goes so quick. So maybe it would have been even less impactful.
